It takes all kinds ...

[seraphcelene]

Hmmmm ...

So, I've been reading about feminism and all of its sundry categories and derivations. And ... wow ... Just ...

Radical feminism and feminist seperatism leave me totally floored. Although I recognize and deeply appreciate the necessity for radical extremes against which the center may be balanced, aiding, indeed inciting, the progression of social, political and economic change, I am stunned by the levels of pure-D hatred and intolerance.I always thought that I was a feminist, or at least had feminist leanings, but apparantly I am a brain washed, enslaved sheep complicit in the degradation and subservience that women are subject to.

I ought to be ashamed.

Too bad that I'm not.

Comments

[katharine-b.livejournal.com]

Okay, warning: long comment ahead. First of all, yay for reading feminist theory & history!

I wouldn't identify myself as a radical feminist either, though I'm sure plenty of morons on the right would be happy to label me that way, because I do believe that patriarchal power structures exist, and I do believe that many men fear and despise women, whether consciously or not.

But oh, I can't say how sad it makes me when women our age see feminism as something too extreme to identify with. My students, too, said this all the time -- "I'm not a feminist, I don't think we need feminism any more," as if the decades since the '70s have wiped out all traces of the oppression of women. And I just don't get that!

I know what you're saying is different, and I can understand finding particular movements/moments within the history of feminism really offputting and strange from a contemporary perspective. (Which is not to say that there aren't still radical feminists and separatists writing & working today, just that it definitely seems more '70s/second-wave feminist to me than contemporary, on the whole.) But: I am a feminist. Sometimes, when I see the way men (or women) treat women, I am furious. I also live with a man and wear skirts; I'm not brainwashed, but I do think I have been shaped by my society to do and want certain things, and I'd rather be aware of it than not.

Do you read <a href="http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/>Twisty</a>? She's a radical feminist who lives in Austin. I don't agree with everything she writes; she floors me sometimes, too. But I think that reaction, that feeling of being shocked back in your seat, is worth it, even if you'll NEVER agree with the thing that shocked you, for exactly the reason you say about the radical extremes broadening the center. I've read lots of theory that I don't agree with, but even some of the essays I hated have changed the way I think. Am I making any sense? I guess all I want to say is: I'm so glad you're reading and having this reaction. And, um, please be a feminist! ;)

OMG!!!! LJ !!!

[seraphcelene]

I had a response almost done, a long one, and it blew up. *grumbles*

First of all, I am a feminist. I will always be a feminist. Radical feminists, however, would reject me as a feminist and that is largely what this post was in response to. I am not radical enough to be a feminist and because I am not radical enough, I am not good enough and my efforts aren't really considered to be worth anything. That is the message that I got, reading different blogs and posts. It has less to do with the historical definition of feminism, but current activity and conversations.

Of course, like I said, I totally understand the necessity for those radical discourses. They, as you so beautifully put it, broaden the center. I am, however, left of center in most things. And I am very definitly a feminist and have no problem with owning that designation. I also have no problem with discussing and challenging the stereotypes associated with being a woman and also with being a feminist.

That said, I am like you. I am very aware of my own conditioning, my reactions to it (positive and negative) and my participation in performing gender coded behaviors that have little to do with biology and everything to do with cultural and social expectations. As much as I totally enjoy performing my womanhood (make-up, heels, dresses, hair), I also enjoy exploring and participating in things that do not necessarily fall into those traditional female coded behaviors (I love power tools and using my hands, I adore video games and learning about computers. I am IN LOVE with football and would totally play if I wasn't such a chicken shit when it comes to pain. I like lifting weights and being strong. I am more interested in my muscle tone and heart/lung capacity then I am in being thin or having a flat belly. I'd rather have great triceps and biceps.)

To me feminism means equality and the right to choose. I should be able to choose to be with a man if that's what I want. My love of the guy shouldn't taint or dilute my commitment to feminine empowerment.

That's what I objected to. That's what I was commenting on. I just can't seem to do anything without planting my tongue firmly in cheek.

In the end, I didn't feel as if I was welcomed by these feminists, these radical, separatist, man-hating women. As vital as I think this kind of discourse is, as crucial, I'm pretty sure that if there were a march and I were there, I wouldn't join them afterward for coffee and a chat. I just don't think that I would be welcomed.

I agree with them on many thing, we are disadvantaged, women have a long way to go, we are our worse enemies. I am often horrified at the treatment of women by men (AND like you said, other women). What is worse is that the types of treatments and disparagement are automatic and thoughtless. No one sees a problem with it. I feel the same about racism.

So, I am still a feminist. I am still interested in reading more about various types of feminism. I've read part of it and I am STILL intent on finishing Judith Butler's Gender Trouble (which of what I've read, I have loved). So, if you don't mind having me, I'll be a feminist for life!! :D

Re: OMG!!!! LJ !!!

[katharine-b.livejournal.com]

Ah, I understand much better now what you mean and how you were feeling about reading radical feminist texts. Reading something and feeling pretty sure that the author would think unkindly of you is... yeah, not good. Especially when you do share lots of concerns and goals with the author, and might otherwise sympathize with her, at least on some fronts.

Sorry that my first response missed your point somewhat -- I do just get so frustrated sometimes with my students and their reluctance even to consider labeling themselves as feminists. (ARGH.) Okay, better now.

And hey, a tongue-in-cheek response is good.

I have also really liked the Judith Butler I've read, on the whole! I read Undoing Gender for a theory class and liked it quite a bit.

Re: OMG!!!! LJ !!!

[seraphcelene]

I totally understand. I just had a conversation with my sister about sexual harassment in the workplace and her reluctance to report it. I was so startled and totally couldn't believe it, so we had a talk. Women want so much to be liked. Part of that conditioning we mentioned earlier, women are supposed to be nice and accomadating. WTF!!! Part of that, I think, is that we can't be feminists because feminists aren't nice. They make trouble. They hate men. blah blah blah. If I were very young or very unsure about my own position with the cultural and sexual debate then I might be leery of labeling myself a feminist, especially considering the conotation (which unfortunately has most to do with the more extreme, radical and negative components of the movement). If I were you, I'm sure I would be pissed and I could totally see myself being peeved and as a result smart-mouthed with my students.

It's such an important thing that women become aware and THINK for themselves, that people become aware and THINK about the things they do and say and agree to, as well as the things they don't do and don't say. I could pull my hair out.

In closing, I am very glad that there are people out there like you, enlightened and willing to be outspoken about thoughts and ideas. It's so important because so many people refuse to have a voice. Which totally sucks because we are privleged to even have a voice, when so many don't or are prosecuted because they attempt to speak out.

Okay, stepping off the soap box!

Re: OMG!!!! LJ !!!

[katharine-b.livejournal.com]

You know, the sad thing is, I've never been smart-mouthed with my students about feminism -- just standing at the front of the class and telling them I'm a feminist is shocking enough for some of them. Really. *headdesk* I swear, they're thinking: But you're not scary...

Good luck to your sister -- that must suck to deal with. Bah.

Re: OMG!!!! LJ !!!

[seraphcelene]

But you're not scary...

lol! omg!! exactly. it's sad that they have *that* reaction!!!

[my_daroga]

I know exactly what you mean. I get this look from people--including my husband--when I claim feminist as a label because they're thinking of the above. And I always say, look--if people like me don't claim it, it's only claimed by people who, in my opinion, it's impossible to work with. What do I claim instead?

I think that once you've gone so far that there's no way to even discuss the matter--the way that extreme feminists decry the entirety of civilization--you've gone too far. What's the point if you refuse to relate to actual people?

[seraphcelene]

I think that once you've gone so far that there's no way to even discuss the matter--the way that extreme feminists decry the entirety of civilization--you've gone too far. What's the point if you refuse to relate to actual people?

OMG! That's totally it. To generalize, there seemed to be a a resistence to reconditioning the system and an insistence on destroying it. The inability or unwillingness to work with baffles me. Seperating oneself doesn't ever fix the problem, an unwillinginess or disinterest in considering alternative theories seems especially detrimental. How can you grow and learn and change and encourage others to do the same if you are so stuck in only one mode?

[my_daroga]

It's a singularly pessimistic view, too, to basically say we must reject all MEN as part of the problem (I know not everyone says precisely this, but it's so often implied). That doesn't seem like an approach I want to take to anything. I mean, how would that work in the Middle East?