this might be all that I have to say on the matter

[seraphcelene]

So, I'm still having trouble seeing the part where 6A/LJ has been acting illegaly. I re-read the TOS, marked as last updated April 18, 2006 (does anyone have an older copy?), and the language is specifically vague enough to cover their asses. From what I understand they can remove, delete or suspend whomever the want, when they want, and with no notification, but they're under no obligation to do so. They're not obligated to monitor or otherwise edit the content of LiveJournal, but they can if they want. I haven't taken a close look at IJ's TOS, but I assume that the language is the same or very similar.

Although, LJ's sudden and conservative enforcement of its TOS is inconvenient it isn't technically illegal. At least that I can determine on my own and via a few of the discussions on US obscenity laws and the legal jargon in the TOS. The definition of obscenity is the problem. It's rather indefinable, social and moral compasses are too varied, and that makes everyone, me included, nervous. Whatever criteria they decide to use to determine the "artistic merit" of art and text is going to be flawed. It always is. And let’s not get into “artistic merit”. Some things aren’t meant to be artistic. Some things are just for fun.

I am not happy with the way that LJ/6A handled the entire situation. A bunch of better asshats would be hard to locate right about now. They've turned this into a royal mess and managed to alienate a nice chunk of their core business. I don't feel confident that deletions will end with sexual content depicting minors; LJ/6A are focusing our attentions there because that is the location of the initial debate, but the TOS can and applied across the boards. I have no desire to f-lock adult content. While I am definitely interested in protecting the children, I am also not interested in being penalized for you having children and not monitoring their activity. It's a slippery slope and a difficult line to draw, but there it is.

My decision to mostly suspend activity on LJ, again, has to do with their customer service. The TOS is what it is and we all agreed to it when we opened our LJ's. It's a business to them first and foremost, whatever it may be to us, the users. That's not to say that I agree with the deletions. I can see their point, but I also don't believe that they should just delete journals without warning. Apparantly, that has changed, and that's a good thing, but it also may be a case of too little, too late.

The debate has been an interesting one, with highlights being here and here. elke_tanzer's list of links has proven to be indispensable to helping me to get a better hold of the argument.

I am definitely interested in finding out how and where 6A/LJ is behaving illegally. If anyone can point me to a link or explain it, I'd appreciate it.

Comments

[lettered.livejournal.com]

Thought it was only the whackjobs saying LJ/6A was behaving illegally? I can't find anything illegal about what they've done, either. And had they handled their policies better, I might have stayed on regardless of how much they mean to monitor content.

The definition of obscenity is the problem.

I disagree with some of the US laws in this regard, but a vague disclaimer IS sometimes people's friend. What I mean is, the US law is vague, too, but in general I believe that's for the best because it allows the justice system to interpret the laws according to each situation. Me being pretty much a moral relativist, I believe that's how things should be. But anyway, that's just an aimless tangent. The problem with LJ is one of course we're not going to get a jury of our peers, which I don't expect and wouldn't want anyway, for something that's just entertainment. But more importantly (less tangenty), it's not just that the law LJ is using is vague, it's that they keep saying different things. At one point they made it sound like all of fandom would be alright; at another point they said they were only banning things against the law; at another point they said they're banning anything that could be seen as coming close to breaking the law, and so on. Worst of all their policies about how to handle those they see in violation is swiftly fluctuating, and that doesn't actually have anything to do with obscenity and everything to do with customer service, as you say.

I don't feel confident that deletions will end with sexual content depicting minors;

You heard about the 2006 issue where they banned breast feeding icons, right?

It's a slippery slope and a difficult line to draw, but there it is.

It really is. And you know, if LJ is trying so hard to move into the mainstream, maybe it isn't a place I want to be not just due to their policies or service, but because this stuff isn't for mainstream eyes. It's by its very nature sort of fringe-y, and it always will be. Er. A friend of mine asked whether I mean fandom is destined to be nomadic, and, well, I think it kinda is.

and that's a good thing, but it also may be a case of too little, too late.

I am very impressed with the recent statement, and I think if LJ continues to do this well a lot less people will be leaving than I thought. But for me, it's just too late. I don't want to have to deal with the threat of this.

If anyone can point me to a link or explain it, I'd appreciate it.

I have no idea how their actions can possibly be construed as illegal; that's just weird.

[seraphcelene]

You know, I wanted to reply to this and be all articulate, but I find that I can't. I am just exhausted by everything that's been going on. Moving to IJ doesn't mean that it will stop or that it won't happen at some point there, too, but it's my little version of protest.

I totally agree with the LJ going mainstream thing. Although, there application of the TOS seems to be uneven and problematic, creating a very rocky road towards whatever their goals may be.

germaine_pet has outlined what could be seen as the illegality of LJ/6A's actions, however, it's a fragile distinction that may or may not actually be prosecuteable (Is that a word).

I missed the breast feeding icon thing, but there you go. WTF?! Anyway, moving on. Totally moving on.