Heroes and fandom response to it on LJ have been fascinating to watch. Perhaps, cropping up in the middle of a resurgence of the Great Cultural Appropriation Debate of Doom that never really goes away but seems to ebb and flow, it is especially marked for speculation, derision and analysis due to its multicultural cast. I, personally, love that the cast is such a mixed bag of ethnicities. I love that DL is married to Niki and that they have lovely little caramel Micah. What I didn't like was what we saw, or didn't see, of DL in the first few episodes. I thought, okay, great, deadbeat dad. Black deadbeat dad. Angry, black, criminal deadbeat dad. Thumbs up on that one, Tim Kring, way to go.
DL has, however, evolved into the strong, primary caretaker despite the financial problems created by his criminal record. He is the more emotionally stable parent. He has shifted from an ethnic stereotype and into a gender stereotype, the strong, capable masculine figure.
However, other examples of ethnic typecasting and/or stereotyping (with the exception of the Haitian's continued namelessness) have gone pretty much over my head. My particular area of interest is gender and I more readily see examples along those lines than I do in terms of race. Granted, they tie together sometimes.
Looking around, trying to figure out what was what on Heroes as it regards race and ethnicity, I realized that, with shades of grey, all of the characters on Heroes are stock characters, archetypes of very specific models.
Hiro - (despite being Japanese) Chinese Wandering Knight Arrant/Epic Hero. He is also our resident Asian comic book geek boy.
Ando - the sidekick/Reluctant Hero
Sylar - the unstoppable super villain
Bob (the Haitian) - Magical Negro
Lindermann - Anti-Villain/Tragic Villain
Isaac - the tortured artist
DL - the angry, criminal black man
Niki/Jessica - Damsel in Distress/Femme Fatale (I am developing a deep fascination with this dichotomy encapsulated within one character. If we think of the Damsel as the helpless female character who must be rescued by the Knight, it creates an interesting and, perhaps, problematic discourse if the Damsel is able to rescue herself via a secondary personality, the Femme Fatale. But that's another post.)
Parkman - Hero, albeit a very dumb one. Can we read him as a blundering hero? ETA: Average Joe. Thanks, [Unknown site tag]!
Claire - the Reluctant Hero
Peter - Epic Hero
Nathan - Villain, Byronic/Tragic Hero (?)
Micah - Child Prodigy
Hiro's father - elder martial arts master/a guru whose job it is to instruct the Hero and impart ability and wisdom
Angela Petrelli - monstrous (controlling) mother
Mr. Bennett - Initially, villain and I'm ambivalent about making him an outright hero. Like Parkman, there are issues, I think, with the assignation.
Charles (Simone's father) - Magical Negro
Mohinder - Foreign Scientist (Thanks,
tkp! That's perfect.
Obviously not everyone lines up. We can call Simone a tragic mulatta because she dies while caught up in a battle for her affections. The tragic mulatta, however, is recognized by her ability to pass and her difficulty with mediating her racial identity. From the outside in, other characters respond to her as a "white" woman, but ultimately, she must die or be excised from the text because she presents a threat to the "correct" relationship between a white male and a white female. Translating that to the Heroes universe, Simone could be seen as presenting a dangerous distraction to the relationship that should exist between the Heroes (Isaac and Peter) and their powers, at least initially. Isaac and Peter are caught up in the struggle over her and it takes her death for them to focus on the "correct" relationship (read important events), how to save the world.
Looking at Heroes in light of the primary characters as representative of an archetypal figure, can we say that the show is irresponsibly representing race or that, for the most part, the creators did their best to just cast a multi-culture show. Simone, for example could have been anyone -- black, white, other. Her father could have been white, but as seems to be the trend/tradition, he was black. The only movie that I can think of that had a white father with a black daughter was Jurassic Park II. I'm positive there are others. However, tradition seems to be that the father is black and darker, the daughter is very fair and with "Anglo" features. Thus, Simone.
I've gotten off track and kinda off the map, but what got me to thinking about this dynamic within the text were two comments, one made by
oyceter and the other by
thawrecka. What those comments led me to wonder is this:
Can you use archetypes effectively and without them becoming stereotypes?
Is it possible to avoid the clichés associated with archetypes especially as they come into contention with race and gender tropes and stereotypes? For example: Could Willow have turned evil had Oz been the one to die? Is her conversion to a rampaging villain damaged by the fact that her dead lover was a woman? Does Heroes, without the established canonical history of a show like BtVS or Angel, automatically fall into the trap of ethnic and gender stereotyping simply by attempting to create an "inclusive" universe?
Does Heroes intentionally make use of ethnic, gender, literary/psychological archetypes? Is it all an inconvenient accident? If the models presented within the text are intentionally representative of gender and ethnic tropes what does that mean for our understanding of the show's "Mission Statement?"
So, those are my rudimentary thoughts. Kind of all over the map, but I'm curious. What do you think? Inquiring minds want to know.
DL has, however, evolved into the strong, primary caretaker despite the financial problems created by his criminal record. He is the more emotionally stable parent. He has shifted from an ethnic stereotype and into a gender stereotype, the strong, capable masculine figure.
However, other examples of ethnic typecasting and/or stereotyping (with the exception of the Haitian's continued namelessness) have gone pretty much over my head. My particular area of interest is gender and I more readily see examples along those lines than I do in terms of race. Granted, they tie together sometimes.
Looking around, trying to figure out what was what on Heroes as it regards race and ethnicity, I realized that, with shades of grey, all of the characters on Heroes are stock characters, archetypes of very specific models.
Hiro - (despite being Japanese) Chinese Wandering Knight Arrant/Epic Hero. He is also our resident Asian comic book geek boy.
Ando - the sidekick/Reluctant Hero
Sylar - the unstoppable super villain
Bob (the Haitian) - Magical Negro
Lindermann - Anti-Villain/Tragic Villain
Isaac - the tortured artist
DL - the angry, criminal black man
Niki/Jessica - Damsel in Distress/Femme Fatale (I am developing a deep fascination with this dichotomy encapsulated within one character. If we think of the Damsel as the helpless female character who must be rescued by the Knight, it creates an interesting and, perhaps, problematic discourse if the Damsel is able to rescue herself via a secondary personality, the Femme Fatale. But that's another post.)
Parkman - Hero, albeit a very dumb one. Can we read him as a blundering hero? ETA: Average Joe. Thanks, [Unknown site tag]!
Claire - the Reluctant Hero
Peter - Epic Hero
Nathan - Villain, Byronic/Tragic Hero (?)
Micah - Child Prodigy
Hiro's father - elder martial arts master/a guru whose job it is to instruct the Hero and impart ability and wisdom
Angela Petrelli - monstrous (controlling) mother
Mr. Bennett - Initially, villain and I'm ambivalent about making him an outright hero. Like Parkman, there are issues, I think, with the assignation.
Charles (Simone's father) - Magical Negro
Mohinder - Foreign Scientist (Thanks,
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Obviously not everyone lines up. We can call Simone a tragic mulatta because she dies while caught up in a battle for her affections. The tragic mulatta, however, is recognized by her ability to pass and her difficulty with mediating her racial identity. From the outside in, other characters respond to her as a "white" woman, but ultimately, she must die or be excised from the text because she presents a threat to the "correct" relationship between a white male and a white female. Translating that to the Heroes universe, Simone could be seen as presenting a dangerous distraction to the relationship that should exist between the Heroes (Isaac and Peter) and their powers, at least initially. Isaac and Peter are caught up in the struggle over her and it takes her death for them to focus on the "correct" relationship (read important events), how to save the world.
Looking at Heroes in light of the primary characters as representative of an archetypal figure, can we say that the show is irresponsibly representing race or that, for the most part, the creators did their best to just cast a multi-culture show. Simone, for example could have been anyone -- black, white, other. Her father could have been white, but as seems to be the trend/tradition, he was black. The only movie that I can think of that had a white father with a black daughter was Jurassic Park II. I'm positive there are others. However, tradition seems to be that the father is black and darker, the daughter is very fair and with "Anglo" features. Thus, Simone.
I've gotten off track and kinda off the map, but what got me to thinking about this dynamic within the text were two comments, one made by
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
Can you use archetypes effectively and without them becoming stereotypes?
Is it possible to avoid the clichés associated with archetypes especially as they come into contention with race and gender tropes and stereotypes? For example: Could Willow have turned evil had Oz been the one to die? Is her conversion to a rampaging villain damaged by the fact that her dead lover was a woman? Does Heroes, without the established canonical history of a show like BtVS or Angel, automatically fall into the trap of ethnic and gender stereotyping simply by attempting to create an "inclusive" universe?
Does Heroes intentionally make use of ethnic, gender, literary/psychological archetypes? Is it all an inconvenient accident? If the models presented within the text are intentionally representative of gender and ethnic tropes what does that mean for our understanding of the show's "Mission Statement?"
So, those are my rudimentary thoughts. Kind of all over the map, but I'm curious. What do you think? Inquiring minds want to know.
no subject
Date: 2007-05-23 06:22 pm (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2007-05-23 07:23 pm (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2007-05-23 06:41 pm (UTC)From:I thought it was interesting you didn't include Mohinder or any of his family on your list. One could draw lots of interesting stereotypes about him.
Love what you say about DL and especially about Simone. That's really interesting and I never would have thought of it.
Can you use archetypes effectively and without them becoming stereotypes?
I vote yesyesyes, because* BtVS did it all over the place and very effectively. Sometimes it failed, but most times brilliant use was made of archetypes for characters who were still their own people.
Is her conversion to a rampaging villain damaged by the fact that her dead lover was a woman?
This I don't know about. While* Oz was just as important to Willow, Tara helped Willow define herself more, and I think it did have to do with Tara being a woman and Willow defining her sexuality. It's interesting to compare Willow's grief with Anya and other "women scorned". Of course their men didn't die so one can't directly compare, but perhaps it does say something about...dunno, revenge over a woman as compares to revenge over a man.
automatically fall into the trap of ethnic and gender stereotyping simply by attempting to create an "inclusive" universe?
I wondered about that from the get go.
I went to a high school that was 25% Caucasian, 30% African American, 30% Hispanic, 14% Asain. When I went to college, it had to have been oh, at least 70% white. But most of the kids going there were from white highschool (rich white highschools, I might add), and in the words of my room mate they thought, "Wow, this university is so diverse!" And I just kinda went, "Buzzah? I've never seen so many white people in my whole life." (Which was true then but is false after today because I live in a VERY white suburb and apparently it was the last day of school or something and a half day and I almost ran over many many children, and they would have deserved it for BEING ALL OVER THE PLACE. Hoodlums.)
Anyway, the point of this story is, I watch something like Heroes, and characters such as Mohinder, Hiro, and DL seem very..."placed". (Something that I would *far* rather than having an all white cast. Because frankly I don't relate to that in a social sense, because so many of my friends are and have not been white). Simone is the only one who didn't seem that way, and that's because as you say, she could've been played by any race. Mohinder and Hiro, obviously not. DL could have been white, but the revelation of his character first as a criminal and by the end as a strong, caring father would have been less effective, solely on the money of the African American man stereotype.
So yeah, Heroes was definitely* making intentional use of stereotype there, but I think they were trying to subvert it, which was well done*. And Mohinder and Hiro are archetypes of Foreign Scientist and Samurai, but I think they're doing an excellent job of making them more than racial stereotypes.
Making them more than literary stereotypes, I'm not so sure Heroes is successful yet. I like the show a lot, but so far I have difficulty getting into any one of the characters with an all-consuming love because, as you say, they're stereotypes. But while race does add to that stereotype I think the characters are well rounded enough to be who they are aside from race, but again, not necessarily enough to escape literary trope. Does that make any sense at all?
*"imo" censored. HEE!
no subject
Date: 2007-05-23 08:47 pm (UTC)From:Yeah, I couldn't decide where to put him. On the surface, I think the title Heroes is in reference to those with super powers, so I'm hesitant to include non-powered characters. Angela Petrelli and the Elder Nakamura are included because I think they have powers that we just haven't seen yet.
Of course, we understand that Heroes references everyone who makes a stand for truth, justice and
capitalismthe American way so that would mean that everyone could be included as a type. I also couldn't think of the term that I wanted to use for him, but the Foreign Scientist is perfect, so thank you for that. I think also because he is an "Eastern" Scientist, it is especially apt. And I'm referring to both him and his father's interest in being open to this preposterous shift in evolution. I think that we can tie that to an assumption (read stereotype) that this openness is a result of their Eastern religion and the sensibility of "otherness" that is supposed to allow them to see, accept and understand beyond their Western counterparts.Love what you say about DL and especially about Simone.
The Simone part is stretched a little, but I'm really taken with the idea of her as a tragic mulatta and how that can be translated into the Heroes universe.
I vote yesyesyes, because* BtVS did it all over the place and very effectively. Sometimes it failed, but most times brilliant use was made of archetypes for characters who were still their own people.
I would agree. The question then becomes does the fact that these are characters of color affect the ability of the writers and creators to present anything other than stereotypes just because they are "colored". And what I'm trying very poorly to say is, will the audience be more sensitive to the archetypes and tropes as racial or ethnic stereotypes because we're continually allowing race and ethnicity to trump character? If the creators are very specifically lining up these archetypes with the characters, completely aware of the ethnic and racial implications, how does that change what's being said about the show? Our understanding of what they are doing should change to a consideration of why are they doing it, yes?
While* Oz was just as important to Willow, Tara helped Willow define herself more, and I think it did have to do with Tara being a woman and Willow defining her sexuality.
I don't know much about the dead lesbian lover trope, but I would agree that Willow's reaction to Tara's death is a reaction to the death of someone who was so, as you say, "defining" and I would also say defining beyond sexuality because Tara comes along at a time when Willow is really coming to understand her abilities as a witch. But let's say that a male character was able to provide the same lessons that Tara did, would Willow have responded the same to that death?
Although I see Tara's death as the key to Willow's transformation, I also can't divorce it from the five seasons of character development. So, would the fact that Willow is unable to control the situation have created the same meltdown?
So yeah, Heroes was definitely* making intentional use of stereotype there, but I think they were trying to subvert it, which was well done*. And Mohinder and Hiro are archetypes of Foreign Scientist and Samurai, but I think they're doing an excellent job of making them more than racial stereotypes.
Making them more than literary stereotypes, I'm not so sure Heroes is successful yet.
I think that may be the point of departure for those who watch the show; we're not necessarily divorcing the racial stereotype from the literary stereotype/archetype. So, if they are attempting to subvert the stereotype, what does it mean or how do we understand the comment that makes on the show, on the characters, on the stereotype/archetype?
*"imo" censored. HEE!
you are awesome! :)
no subject
Date: 2007-05-23 09:00 pm (UTC)From:this openness is a result of their Eastern religion and the sensibility of "otherness" that is supposed to allow them to see, accept and understand beyond their Western counterparts.
YES. I was going to go into that but didn't know how to articulate it. I wasn't thinking about their openness in terms of accepting this genetic leap--scientifically, anyway. Rather more of an interest in everything being connected, and in things coming around, stuff like that. They're interested in connecting together (illustrated in Mohinder's dad's map!) those with power in a spiritual way. The big shady corporation that Bennet works for and has something to do with Linderman or whatever is only interested in separating the ones with power, rather than connecting them. And Sylar's interested in owning them.
I'm going to come back to the rest of your comment later because I need time to ponder what you are saying.
no subject
Date: 2007-05-24 05:56 pm (UTC)From:That's right. Forgot I added Ando. I connect him so much to Hiro that I think I forget that he isn't a hero on his own.
They're interested in connecting together (illustrated in Mohinder's dad's map!) those with power in a spiritual way. The big shady corporation that Bennet works for and has something to do with Linderman or whatever is only interested in separating the ones with power, rather than connecting them. And Sylar's interested in owning them.
Of course the idea of Eastern spirituality and interconnectivity are problematized by the reaction of the Indian academic community to Mohinder and his father's research. When Mohinder is in a classroom setting, and if we tie academia to a Western ideology of objective thinking, he is ridiculed for his interest and belief. However, in the community, and if we tie the chaotic marketplace with an Eastern spiritual aesthetic than we assume that perhaps the "correct" path for him to follow is the path of the spirit. Among the people, meaning Eastern openness to a less rigid idea of existence.
I started an outline on the understanding, acceptance and use of power in Heroes based on some of what you noted. I'd be interested to see an analysis of how the show deals with religious tropes as they apply to power and morality within the text.
no subject
Date: 2007-05-24 09:13 am (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2007-05-24 03:27 pm (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2007-05-29 04:40 pm (UTC)From: