How do you share a sandbox?

[seraphcelene]

tkp's new War Stories 'verse got me to thinking and that's really no surprise because tkp inspires most of my thoughts these days and that totally makes sense considering the shininess of her brain.

I know there's been discussion on this in other places, and if anyone remembers the link please forward it. How do you share a fandom created universe? Or do you? Can you? Is it possible to play in someone else's sand box without stepping on anyone's toes? Do you ask permission before you write, or before you post? Do you ask permission at all? Does the fact that fandom is predicated on appropriation eliminate the necessity to ask permission? Is it assumed that all is open to everyone or ... well, what's the deal?



The only fic I've ever actually read in which a fic writer borrows' another fic writer's universe is Fialka's Worlds Enough and Time, written in Maayan's Sleep While I Drive universe. From the Author's Notes I suspect that Fialka asked before she dived in and Maayan agreed and also provided beta.

But maybe that's not what happened. I never asked the parties involved.

I hijacked moireach's 'verse from The Sky Has Claws for the willowficathon and wrote The Fall of Night. I didn't ask. My brain just knotted itself until I wrote it, but I felt so bad about it that I never actually submitted it. It took a minute for me to go ahead and post, and moireach graciously left positive comments.

Of course, I still wonder, did she really not mind? Or did it really make her skin crawl and bristle and her hair stand on end to think that someone had gone and added onto a story that she had begun. And without permission, mind you.

With open-ended narrative arc's like tkp's War Stories 'verse or even just stories that imply a gazillion possibilities for future events, do writers write IN a universe that belongs to another writer or do they write on the sly and never mention their inspiration or the connections between what they have written and what has been written previously? Does the story merely become part of the literary tradition for that fandom/character?

The Fall of Night is very blatantly located in moireach's Sky verse. In fact, it could come into contention with however she chooses to continue or close that narrative. Of course it could also be totally ignored as it was not initially part of the story.

Would you mind if someone was so inspired by a story that you had written that they felt the need to contribute or would you rather they keep it to themselves? This is not, after all, a money-making endeavor. We've already violated copyrights and there's always the debate over infringements, etc, etc, ad nauseum.

Is it considered bad form? Does it matter?

I don't know if I'd mind if someone dived into one of the little universes I'd created. I'm sure if they did a swell job I would be tickled to death and jealous as all hell. But, I don't think I'd mind. The Remix ... Redux Challenges are voluntary and they are altered versions of the same stories, sometimes extended, sometimes not. I don't have the courage or the nerve to participate, but maybe one day.

What do you guys think? Tell me something ...

Comments

[gloss]

I think it'd be neat if someone stole a universe I'd started, but a head's up would be cool/acknowledgement would be cool, you know?

Also, I miss you, pretty lady. LIKE WHOA.

[seraphcelene]

Oh, babycakes!! I miss you, too!!! But you've been living all up in the DC-verse of late and I am lost there! :( And I need to get internet at home so that I can run catch up with all my cool kids!!

I'm glad that you stopped by though. *smooch*

[lettered.livejournal.com]

You're really nice to me you know that?

But anyway. Here's how I personally feel about this:

-Once, when I was heavy into the X-men fandom, I read this one girl's fic, thought it had a great premise, and wanted to take the premise and do my own thing with it. I took the idea without asking, and wrote the fic I wanted to. But I would never, ever, EVER have posted it or shared it with anyone else had I not contacted that author, and asked her if what I had done was okay with her. Which I did, it was, and that all ended happily. I would've written that story with or without her permission, because for me it was a private need. But when that becomes public, that's a different thing entirely.

-It's all a matter of degree: to me, there's a difference between inspiration and appropriation. I actually got the idea for War Stories from two things: watching Horatio Hornblower, which I mentioned in my A/N, and reading TBQ's fics. I was going to mention TBQ in the A/N, but the more I thought about it, the less direct inspiration I saw. She did a post-apocalyptic AU fic that involved Angel as the leader of a group of people, and Connor was in it, but plenty of people have done those types of AUs. It was mostly that, the fact that Angel-as-a-leader-in-a-post-apocalyptic-situation had been done by several people, at least, that made me feel like I was using yes, something that had become part of fanon for Angel. TBQ was an inspiration, yes, but I feel that what I'm doing with that inspiration is something that's my own.

-If you're writing inside someone's 'verse, that's appropriation, and I feel that it necessitates permission before posting. Besides the morality of it--it's taking something that's not yours (and let's leave the question of "fanfic's not yours to begin with" for the next bullet point) and making it your own--there's a selfish, personal motivation here. Let's put it this way: I'm not big on judging people. I feel that posting a fic in someone else's 'verse without permission is wrong for me, but if one wants to do it, that's one's cuppa and not my business; I wouldn't be upset on moral grounds. Even if the 'verse one was stealing was mine. HOWEVER, if the 'verse one was stealing was mine, and one wrote a fic that covered an idea or plot or concept that I was planning on covering myself, I would be hella upset. I'd be FRAKKING pissed off, again, not on moral grounds but because it would be like--like showing someone spoilers. So, if someone wanted to write a fic in my 'verse, I would want them to ask me first and tell me their idea, so that I could make sure it wasn't something I was planning to cover myself. For that reason, I find asking permission so much more important than crediting the author in an A/N or what have you.

-Fanfic is all about writing in a universe that isn't your own. I don't feel it's morally wrong to play in those 'verses, or else I wouldn't do it. I think the main thing that strikes me as wrong about taking someone else's fanfic, or using their 'verse without asking, is that fanfic is a different playing field from pro stuff. The pro stuff--the movies, books, shows, comics, etc--equals canon. And canon is what everyone in a fandom draws from, and what everyone in a fandom pays respect to, and what everyone in a fandom pays for (canon literally makes money). But, you write in someone's 'verse without credit or permission, and the person who made that 'verse doesn't get that acknowledgement, doesn't get that respect, and most of all, the piece based in the 'verse is in competition with that 'verse. Say I write a crappy as hell fanfic; you like the idea; steal the idea, and get trillions of pats on the back, and I get no pats on the back, because of course my fic was crappy, but yours wouldn't've been so good if you hadn't stolen my idea. You would be stealing the only payment a fanfic writer gets--fb. Good fanfic of bad canon, however, isn't a threat to canon itself; it's an asset. I imagine hard Anakin/Obi Wan fic love has caused more people to watch the newer three SW movies than would have in the first place.

This is my two cents, but I feel about it strongly. I think you'll find that most people do.

This is what I miss about academia!!!! The RW so does not compare!!!

[seraphcelene]

You're really nice to me you know that?

I pretty much call it as I see it and with you, it isn't difficult. :)

But I would never, ever, EVER have posted it or shared it with anyone else had I not contacted that author, and asked her if what I had done was okay with her. Which I did, it was, and that all ended happily. I would've written that story with or without her permission, because for me it was a private need. But when that becomes public, that's a different thing entirely.

In retrospect (actually not very long after I posted The Fall of Night), I wouldn't approach it the same way. I think (and to be honest I didn't REALLY think about it very hard at the time, mostly because of my extreme embarrassment after I finished writing the fic) that part of the reason I went ahead and posted was because I knew the author, and that is not meant as a justification of any kind, and didn't THINK she would mind. Of course I could have been totally wrong. For me, finished fic automatically translates into post-able fic. So, up it went. But, like I said, I can say now that I wouldn't do it again. After moireach's comments on the fic I decided that it was just too weird and too uncomfortable because I did feel as if I had committed a faux pas.

At this point, I read fic and think oh what a great idea, but I never write anything. I don't even feel the need.


to me, there's a difference between inspiration and appropriation

There is mostly definitely a difference, that's what I find so interesting. The majority of my college career, as both undergrad and graduate student, was spent studying the middle ages and questions of authorship and ownership are very interesting to me because of the cultural differences between then and now. Pre-printing press literary culture versus culture managed by authorial ownership and copyright laws.

If someone read one of the War Stories and saw elements that they'd like to play around with, but didn't set it in a mall or include any other characters from War Stories besides, let's say Angel and Connor, and there's no obvious connection between what that person has written and what you have written except for when the author reads it and thinks of it, and they always think of it as it relates to War Stories, how do you handle that? Do you? Is it an issue? At what point do events created in fic become part of fanon? When do these things move into the public domain? Do they ever?

In a modern world, I can understand why you would feel very proprietary about your 'verse, obviously it is yours! Someone else playing around with what's yours, regardless of the morality (I find the semantics of morality problematic), is an issue. In short, I absolutely get your point and in that light, with something as large and open-ended as War Stories I can see the problem with other writers dipping their toes in.

And just for the record, I'm not having any thoughts about War Stories (actually any other fic I've read). I recently re-read Sleep While I Drive and Worlds Enough and really was just curious. I want to make that clear.

Re: This is what I miss about academia!!!! The RW so does not compare!!!

[seraphcelene]

And the REST:

But, you write in someone's 'verse without credit or permission, and the person who made that 'verse doesn't get that acknowledgement, doesn't get that respect, and most of all, the piece based in the 'verse is in competition with that 'verse.

What about with credit and with permission? It is still in competition, does it later become problematic if the secondary fic is preferred or better received by fandom?

Say I write a crappy as hell fanfic; you like the idea; steal the idea, and get trillions of pats on the back, and I get no pats on the back, because of course my fic was crappy, but yours wouldn't've been so good if you hadn't stolen my idea. You would be stealing the only payment a fanfic writer gets--fb.

I have trouble with "stealing the idea", the implication, for me, being an illegal version of the Remix Redux challenges. I just totally re-wrote your fic and did a better job, which is totally my unease with the Remix, I don't want to be shown up by a better writer. But, what if it's a futurefic referencing the ideas and plot of the previous fic for back story? Is it still theft or are you inspired?

It is a slippery slope. And THANK YOU for being thinky and sharing! I still LOVE your brain. And I hope you don't get the wrong idea about why I'm asking these questions ... actually the real impetus for this and a couple of my previous posts are subject for a future post. ;)

Re: This is what I miss about academia!!!! The RW so does not compare!!!

[lettered.livejournal.com]

What about with credit and with permission? It is still in competition, does it later become problematic if the secondary fic is preferred or better received by fandom?

Well, no. Because you did all you could to get me the credit I *do* deserve. You can't help that you're a better writer than me, or that people like you more.

But, what if it's a futurefic referencing the ideas and plot of the previous fic for back story? Is it still theft or are you inspired?

To me, it would depend on how specific the references are. If you reference Angel getting shanshued, that's one thing; if you reference Angel getting shanshued, changing his name, drinking and losering about seeing ghosts, then meeting Buffy, who's getting married, who gets married and then happens to see Angel again, and sleeps with him once, and then Angel finally bucks up and gets on with his life--then I would be wondering why the hell you didn't credit a2zmom.

But yeah, it's a slippery slope. If you're in between those two extremes--if Angel got shanshued, losered about, and Buffy got married, without necessarily all the specifics--well, that's something you could think up on your own without a2z's Guilt Trembling Spoke My Doom series. But I would hope that if the author knows she's consciously using those events as set-up for her story, she would credit a2z. Asking permission, less so, for something like that, because a2z said she's finished with that series, and anything anyone else would do with it is unlikely to interfere with her future plans for it.

And I hope you don't get the wrong idea about why I'm asking these questions

Oh, no, I hope you didn't think I thought you were! Like I said, I have strong feelings about it, and I just gave you what my own reactions would be.

Re: This is what I miss about academia!!!! The RW so does not compare!!!

[lettered.livejournal.com]

For me, finished fic automatically translates into post-able fic.

I have the same problem! This is why I have difficulty getting stuff beta'ed. It's not for lack of nice people about; it's that I get way too damn impatient.

how do you handle that? Do you? Is it an issue?

I can't see that being an issue, because if there's no obvious connection, the author didn't *take* anything.

At what point do events created in fic become part of fanon?

Maybe you're asking this: I think fanon *starts* from people mooching off other people's ideas, whether they're asking to take them or not. Once a few people have done it, it gets to the point where it seems like there's no originator, but usually yeah, there was a fic or culprit that started it all.

If I've seen something in a few different fics by different authors, if the authors all *know* each other and are friends, I still feel kinda uncomfortable using it--it's like a joint creation of theirs. But when I see something in a few different fics by different authors who I'm pretty sure don't idea-share, I feel pretty comfortable using that, though I do try to go find the originator (I did that in one fandom and everybody was like: so and so invented that??? We never knew!!! Now we have to credit her every time we use that!!! And yes, there were all those punctuation marks.) When I see something in so many fics, it's ubiquitous, I don't even try to find the originator--but that's also when I try not to use that bit of fanon, because fanon that's so universally accepted is just tiresome, and it's in fact more interesting to try to do something new with it than use the same conclusion everyone else has come to.

And just for the record, I'm not having any thoughts about War Stories (actually any other fic I've read). I recently re-read Sleep While I Drive and Worlds Enough and really was just curious. I want to make that clear.

Hahahaha well I didn't think you were; I was just using that as my example and basis for my feelings. Partly I feel strongly about that 'verse in particular because I have *so* many ideas for it, and so many of them are ideas anyone would come up with if they thought about the 'verse, I think, but I wanna be the one to do them because it's mine. ha!

[thawrecka]

I can't recall ever wanting to play in someone's fandom created universe but if I did... I'd probably write it no matter what. Whether I'd post it anywhere would depend on what the fanauthor thought of the matter, I suppose.

I can't imagine anyone wanting to play in the universes created in my fic, either, but I'd be cool with it.

[seraphcelene]

I can say that there's mucho potential in Rough Magic for all kinds of wacky hijinks. Not to give anyone ideas! But, I'd like to see you realize those things!

And what I've learned for today is to ASK!

Dude, you'd think I'd have remembered that from Pre-K.

[thawrecka]

I would love someone to do fic riffing off Rough Magic. That would make me squee like you wouldn't believe. (Which reminds me that I still haven't finished that willow story I've been writing nigh on two years. I fail!)

I know there are some fanauthors who write fic that inspires a lot of other fic for whatever reasons - I know askerian has a page on her website for the fic written by other people in a universe she created in one of her stories. So I don't think it's too much of a faux pas? Generally people seem cool with it.